Babachir Lawal was a Secretary to the Federal Government under the administration of former President Muhammdu Buhari. In this interview, he speaks on the gale of defections in the country, how the administration of President Bola Tinubu has failed in the areas of security and economy. He also speaks on how opposition politicians are working closely to form a coalition that will unseat the president in 2027, among other issues. JOY ANIGBOGU brings the excerpts:
What can you say about President Bola Tinubu’s visit to Pope Leo XIV’s inauguration in the Vatican?
Bola Tinubu going to visit the Pope is a none issue. It reinforces my earlier belief that Muslims-Muslim ticket is an insult to Christianity. Had there been a senior Christian as a vice president, it’s only expected that he would be the one to represent the government. But now in Nigeria, we have a so-called Muslim visiting the Pope leading a delegation of Catholics, eminent Catholics, to the Vatican. So it proves the fact that a Muslim-Muslim ticket is an unfair arrangement. Having said that, about people defecting to the APC, in politics there are two classes of people. Those who go into politics to get something out of it, and those who get into politics to put something into it. Yes, again, I must say, it’s not every Nigerian that can withstand hunger, and not every Nigerian can survive pressure. So most of these politicians that are defecting to APC are probably driven by the desire to safeguard their stomachs and to safeguard their luxurious lifestyles that they’ve acquired while in government using the people’s money. So to them, it’s okay, they can go that way, that’s what they choose to do. Now, as to defection, I saw a study last week that showed that 21 governors could not deliver their states to their preferred presidential candidates, which means that the governors have little influence on the voter at the polling unit. Yes, within the party political system, they have some influences. They can rig their party’s primaries in favour of their candidates. So a senator, for example, who is out of favour with his governor is endangered in that sense. His governor might not give him the return ticket. He could just order everybody not to vote for him. But no governor can influence the voter.
Take, for example, Delta State. The vice presidential candidate for PDP was the governor, serving governor, on the seat. But he could not deliver. Peter Obi beat them flat, I mean, flat. What is it? In Borno State, it’s very well-known that the vice president could not deliver Borno State to the APC, until they did some magic on the results so that he’s not embarrassed. But we know, the voter knows he has been disgraced woefully. Defection is just a function of the character of the person.
It’s a function of the character. Somebody without character will easily abandon you when his interest is threatened, rather than when the interests of the masses are threatened. So that is my position. We are not bothered about defections. It will continue to happen. But in 2027, we’ll go to the ballot boxes and we’ll see the results. We’re confident that it’s immaterial.
What do you say to the critics who say that you are arrogant, you are religious bigot, and that you should remain silent? What do you say to them?
I’m a trained pastor. I went to a seminary for four years. I came out with a degree in it. I maintained my religious background with a master’s degree in theology. So if you call me a Christian religious bigot, I’m very happy. It means that my lifestyle, my speeches convey the impression that I’m a Christian. So I don’t see calling myself a religious bigot as an insult.
Again, I would not fault anybody denigrating my religion in any way, in any shape or form, be it in politics or in other aspects of life. If you come out and say a Christian from the North cannot, or the Christianity in the North cannot produce a vice president, it’s an insult. And it’s to my religion and to my person. So it’s a compliment if people call me a religious bigot, because as a Christian, I stand for the truth, which a Christian should do. And I stood for the truth, and I defended my religion. And as God will have it, for those who supported the religion, Muslim- Muslim, because they are Muslims, we go to the same market. And I think the majority of them grumble now more than me. Majority of them go to bed without food yesterday, this morning, tomorrow, without food. Don’t know where they are going to get their next meal. So if that is what their religion preachers, let them have their way.
I read an interview where you expressed how you’ve been part of coalition conversations. And you also said that Atiku has also been extremely active. However, the name PDP has never come up in any of these conversations. That more than likely, you’re all moving to a new party. I’d just like you to clarify this, because there’s been speculation, but there hasn’t been a confirmation. Does this mean that you’ll be supporting Atiku as he moves to the ADC? Because there were also reports that the initial plan to go to SDP has also fallen apart, because they say that the SDP has been hijacked by APC. What’s your take on all of these issues surrounding coalition talks?
Well, first of all, regarding Atiku, I’m not his spokesman. But my stand with Atiku is that we are from the same state. And he’s an elder statesman in my state in particular. He was a former vice president and eminent politician.
And so, to that extent, I have great respect for him as a politician and as an elder from my state. As to his political ambition, he’s entitled to it, like every Nigerian that is entitled to it. It is not for me to decide on which platform Atiku will contest or if he will contest at all. It’s for him and his inner circle to decide. Be that as it may, I can confirm that in almost most of the political meetings I’ve
run into Atiku a large number of times. Even just yesterday, I was in one of such meetings and he was there. So he has been an active participant in the need for opposition political parties to move into one platform to form one strong opposition party. Whether he will contest on that platform or not is not the issue. Now, the work about this is we have a technical committee of experts, experienced experts, who analyze all the possible political parties we could adapt and move in and strengthen it and upgrade it. Make it more suitable for competitive help. That’s our main goal. Atiku has presented himself at all such meetings and my reading of him is that he’s committed to this cause. In fact, he’s one of the most committed towards this cause. This I can tell you about Atiku. Now, as to the coalition itself, it is mostly driven by prominent politicians who agree to come together to form this coalition. It is not focused on which political party should form the merger. First, our options are this: Do we get another party that we could move into, modify it, upgrade it, and strengthen it for elections? Or do we register a new political party? We have technical committees of experts looking into both of these. And I am sure, as we speak, we are getting to the end of the process. And I think we will soon announce a party that we will move into or maybe we will register a new party. We are getting to the end of that. Nigerians are anxious about this. Every time we go out, people ask what platform, what platform. Since we are here to serve the people, we are speeding up the process to reduce the tension among our supporters. But I can tell you, in all the cases I have seen so far, nobody has ever bothered about, let’s adopt PDP as the platform. We all agree that PDP has an incurable virus. No antibiotic can cure what is ailing PDP. And we don’t want to go into a house that we cannot modify, that is not willing to change. So PDP is not in that list.
When was the last time you spoke to President Tinubu? Because he used to be a very good friend. Since this administration started, have you spoken to him? What is your assessment of the state of play of Nigeria, the economy and security? Thirdly, now that a Muslim-Muslim ticket has sailed through, will you support a Christian-Christian ticket, in terms of principle, of religion balancing?
As to when I last spoke with President Tinubu, I spoke to him last, I think sometime maybe June 2022. When I went to London to present to him our final report and recommendations on how to proceed with the general elections. He left me in London and came back to Nigeria and announced his vice presidential candidate. Since then we have not spoken. We have not spoken, there has been no need for us to speak. As to my position on the Muslim-Muslim ticket now, first of all, it has opened a Pandora’s Box. Somebody can now come out with a Christian-Christian ticket, and Nigerians will find it very difficult to oppose it because a precedent has been set. But not only was I complaining about the Christian-Christian ticket because of religious considerations, but because of the sense of equity. There needs to be equity in what we do. If we don’t, we suffer the consequences like we are doing now. Because we have not shown equity, we have discriminated against a huge segment of the society. I do believe that part of the punishment we are going through is on account of that. When the leader decides to practice evil, the society suffers. And that is where we are now. And I always remember, not only Muslim-Muslim tickets or Christian-Christian tickets, not about the ticket alone, but also about regional balances. People must feel they have a sense of belonging before they can put their energy into working to develop the country and to unite the country.
So that is my take about this. And I will not support a Christian-Christian ticket in any form. But this man has bad precedents, and this is where we are.
So what’s your read on the economy and insecurity, generally? Some of the supporters say he has gone well. They say he’s building a coastal road. They say he’s fixing insecurity. They say he’s fixing all the bad things. They say he’s turning the economy around. That’s what his supporters are saying.
Well, I know there are supporters. The supporters, I think, have cotton wool in their ears. Or they are blind.
Because insecurity has grown exponentially since the arrival of Bola Tinubu in government. Everywhere where insecurity was not there, it’s now grown. In places it was there, it has expanded. So we can’t talk of insecurity under Bola Tinubu. They have not done anything. It is as if the government is training the soldiers themselves. So we can’t talk about it. This government is better not to talk about insecurity when talking about them. About the economy, it’s exactly the same thing. The poverty has multiplied exponentially. Even those who were doing well feel now threatened. Because the economy has collapsed, completely collapsed. We are just surviving by the grace of God on a hand-to-mouth basis. They are borrowing money that doesn’t arrive in Nigeria before it is spent.
Even when it arrives in Nigeria, they spend it on intangible things that we cannot show, that are not measurable, that are not visible. So what are they talking about? Economy in this government? It’s not their intention. Their intention is to run down this country. That is their intention. Which is a surprise because people like Bola Tinubu didn’t have this type of tendency before. But now it appears that he just deceived us in those days, all along. And now he has gotten the power and is in a mood to ruin the economy.
What you are saying is different from what the spokespersons of Bola Tinubu’s administration are saying. Only yesterday, the Central Bank of Nigeria (CBN) was talking about ensuring stability. The IMF has commended this government. The
World Bank has commended this government. In fact, politicians from the North-West have also endorsed the Tinubu administration. So how do you justify your statement that Tinubu’s ambition is to collapse this economy? No president of Nigeria comes forward to say he wants to destroy the country. You worked under President Buhari. Did he ever say he would destroy the economy? Why would Tinubu’s case be different?
He doesn’t need to say it. He only needs to do it. You are known by your actions. He doesn’t need to say it. People from the North shamelessly gathered themselves, drank tea and coffee, and said, what would they do? There is no state in the North-West that is safe. The poverty level in the North-West is so huge, it’s so terrible, much more than anywhere else. If their so-called leaders choose that is the path they want, good luck to you. But everybody knows that they are just liars. They are deceiving themselves, and they are deceiving their own people. They have no regard for their people. If somebody from the North, Zamfara, Katsina, Sokoto, Kebbi, Kaduna, says that they endorse Bola Tinubu because of his security policy, he is a shameless liar. What induced them to do that is between them and their God and their conscience. But Nigerians know that it is not so. So that is the truth. Do you have an example of a country that has gone under the IMF that came out stronger? The IMF, the World Bank, they are distributing provisions so that their people can come and exploit our wealth and take it away. Which country has fared better under the IMF? Which country? Any time you hear of an IMF loan or a World Bank loan, the economy crashes more. All over the world.
Tell me, which country has ever benefited from the input from the IMF? Which country? None.